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Holocaust Remembrance WebChat
April 16, 1996
John Loftus

As with many WebChats, the typos are ours. This is how the chat began. It continueswith a lively discussion of hate groups on the Internet, education, and the question ofwhether or not to debate revisionism.

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Elmar (): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 8:48AM PDT (-0700 GMT)
The world after the hollocaust learnd tolive with atrocities. We shall not forget the deads of Biafra, the Laos,Vietnam, Randa , ex-Jugoslavia, the deads by the Hamas in

Unlucky In Love (): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 10:49AM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I am only a 16 year old and today Iwent to a rememberance ceremony and their were people who survived the Holocaustwho were speaking and even though I was neot in the concerntration camps, I havenever cried so much in my life. I am proud to be Jewish and I always will be, Iwill also do anything that I can to stop what happened in the Holocaust to everhappen again. I think that this tribute to rememberance day in Web chat is one ofthe first ways to stop people from forgetting what happened and to make sure thatit never happens again.

laurel_mancini8 (): . . . . Tue, Apr16, 11:58AM PDT (-0700 GMT)
1

Hickchick (): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 12:52PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I have never been exposed to the amount ohhatetred that the Jewish people have went through. there is not much exposure inSouth Dakota besides what is on TV.

_Will_ (MEE): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 1:06PMPDT (-0700 GMT)
*Will leaves a black rose for all the people who didebecause of hitler*

Antony (STARMAN): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 1:14PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
HELLO: I'm Albert and I'm israeli born fromjew mother and hispanic father. Great oportunity for remember those whodied....time ago.....for the hate.....bigolatry...racism.....Never...hear this..!NEVER, NEVER FORGET !...keep awake...the evil still is between us....KEEPAWAKE

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 2:37PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Cybrary of the Holocaust RemembranceWebChat will begin shortly. My name is Michael Dunn, onscreen as writething.

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 2:44PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Welcome to the first annual HolocaustRemembrance WebChat. Our first speaker is John Loftus, who will be here from 6-7PM EST, 3-4 PST. John Loftus was in US Military Intelligence and was assignedunder President Nixon to determine if there were any Nazi war criminals hiding inthe US. He discovered a secret file which told of a US government program inwhich our own government was hiding Nazi war criminals. He wanted to expose theprogram but was silenced. He decided to quit his job with the government so hecould expose this secret program. He has since devoted his life to finding Naziwar criminals and bringing them to justice. He is author of SPYING ON ZION: THESECRET WAR AGAINST THE JEWS.

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 2:51PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
TIP: If you have Netscape, turn offAuto-Load Images under the Options Menu. If you have another browser and canturn graphics off, it's a good idea and will improve your performance atWebChat.

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 2:54PM PDT (-0700GMT)
Hi, this is John Loftus. Anyone here yet?

COOL*CHIC (): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 2:54PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
...

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 2:55PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Hi John Loftus, my name is Michael Dunn,WebMaster at theCybrary. We should be starting shortly. A few were here much earlier,about two hours ago. We should have more in soon.

Joey Korn (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 2:57PMPDT (-0700 GMT)
Is anybody there yet?

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 2:58PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
John, could we start off by youintroducing yourself; what are you currently working on?

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 2:59PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Hi! It's a pleasureto "meet" you.

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:01PM PDT(-0700 GMT)
I just came back from intervieweing Jonathan Pollard in federalprison. He is the subject of my next book.

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:02PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Patience is needed, the network is alittle slow. But the messages are coming through!

ELF5808 ():. . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:03PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Hi! It's a pleasure to "meet"you.

writething(Michael Dunn): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:03PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Patience isneeded, the network is a little slow. But the messages are coming through!

David Lewin (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:05PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
David Lewin - London England is (hopefully) here

Joey Korn (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:05PMPDT (-0700 GMT)
Hi, John,Welcome.

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:06PM PDT (-0700GMT)
Hi! It's a pleasure to "meet" you.

Joey Korn (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:08PMPDT (-0700 GMT)
Hi David. Glad you could make it. Sorry it's so late foryou.

writething(Michael Dunn): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:08PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
John, have youdone much research on the Internet, such as groups operating online?I'm interested in what you think of the Wiesenthal Center's ideato restrict Internet access to hate groups; is this a wayto combat them online effectively? What do you think?

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:16PM PDT (-0700GMT)
I think that the answer to bad speech is more speech. Restricting theinternet will not end hate groups, only make them more difficult to detect andrebut. This is a legitimate area of debate. Some scholars believe that youshould never debate revisionists and racists. I think it can be an effectivestrtatey, espescially if the respopnse cromes from non-Jews.

writething(Michael Dunn): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:21PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
TIP: For thosehaving problems, the network nationwide is acting up. If things get held up, hityour Stop button and try to Reload. It may help out. But these things areoutside of all of our control. :-)

Joey Korn (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:24PMPDT (-0700 GMT)
Access is very slow. John is trying to communicate and itjust isn't working. Please be patient.

writething (Michael Dunn): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:27PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I don't think restriction is the answermyself. I get over4,000 visitors a month to the Cybrary, all interested in learning.Spending time on the rest would generate more beneficial PRfor them than it would to help the cause of learning, IMHO.

Joey Korn (A Cybrary Moderator): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:29PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
We're still trying.

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:33PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Hi folks! Just raninto the same problem myself, had to reload about 3 times 'til I got it.

tested (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:34PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Should I come back a little later? I'm very interested.

aaj ():. . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:34PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Who here doesn't believe thatthe Holochaust happened??

Jutka (Survivor): . . . . Tue, Apr16, 3:35PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Freedom of speech is not absolute. So hatepropaganda should be curbed everywhere for we know where it can lead to. We havea horrific historic example.

David Lewin (): . . . . Tue, Apr16, 3:35PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I wish I knew what to expectThen I might understand what we are seing.11 people joined - only message so far is "trying"Is that all there has been?

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16,3:36PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Q for John (whenever he gets back): When did youfirst suspect that something was going on,and what tipped you off

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16,3:36PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Ah, but how do we curb hate propaganda withoutcrushing the very freedoms necessary to oue life.

geopolit ():. . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:37PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Should hate propaganda really becurbed? Should we not argue with it? We have the truth on our side. Ourarguments ought to be very convincing.

camalot (): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 3:38PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
The hate that some of these hate groups giveoff is handed down from the parents to thier children

JohnLoftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:38PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Truth is great, butnot in a vaccuum. We all need to speak out more against the deniers. Don'tdebate them, but do denounce them.

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr16, 3:39PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
The more you argue with it, the more you fuel thefire.

Joey Korn (ACybrary Moderator): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:39PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
But doesn'tdebate give them undeserved legitamacy?

ungvar (Always remember. . . Always): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:39PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I think thesolution lies in education via the mass media, and it the political arena, aswell as in preserved videotaped testimony of survivors.

ANadine (ANadine): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 3:39PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
With freedom of speech comesresponsibilities. If you are spreading hate, are you being responsible foractions? I would say no. Thus, hate talk should be stopped.

geopolit (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:41PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
These hates can bepeacefully wiped away. A hundred and fifty years ago Irish Catholics werethought of by "polite society" as little better than apes. Even fifty years ago,in America, they were not yet fully accepted. Things have certainly changed.

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:41PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Education is key, and we have done a lousy job of it. In the last 30 years, weabandoned the field to the deniers. The avrage US kid read only six sentences onHolocaust in all 12 years of school. WQe reaised a generation of bigots.

Jutka (Survivor): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:42PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
There is always tension in a liberal and emocratic society between the rights ofthe individual and the rights of the community at large. Many people have arguedthat the risk of not attending to hate groups and their activities is greaterthan the risk of regulating them.

David Lewin (): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 3:43PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Without any education, the argument of therevisionists is as tangible as that of the majority who accept that the holocausttook place. Revisionism can only be combatted through facts.

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:44PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Nadine, it hasbeen my opinion that bigots are by their very nature irresponsible. What weshould be concerned with is our responsibilty as educators to teach our childrenthat the bigots are wrong and hateful. How are we to dpo that if we pretend suchgroups do not exist, and ban them from the internet.

Joey Korn (A Cybrary Moderator): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:44PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I agree that education is the key. Veryfew states have Holocaust education mandatory. It's left up to the teachers andit's not in the curricula.

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16,3:46PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
If you stop hate talk, then how will you know who toeducate?

Jutka (Survivor): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:47PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Freedom in these cases is not viewed as an absolute right but it is temperedwith the notion of justice and protection of the rights and freedoms of those whoare most vulnerable in our societies.

geopolit (): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 3:47PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Banning these groups from the Internet doesseem ridiculous. I remember when I was a kid being proselytized at the 4-H Fairwhen I passed by the John Birch Society booth. But I never felt any greateracceptance of the Birchers' philosophy.

Joey Korn (A Cybrary Moderator): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:47PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
If we regulate the hate groups, we won'tbe aware of what they're up to. I feel it's better when they're out in theopen.

camalot (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:47PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
What happens when you have a bigoted system, school board or teachers

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:48PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
This is indeed a troubling area. I suppose if I were Jewish, I would not dignifya revisionist by debating him. But as a short-tempered Irish-American, I thinksuch rogues should be exposed. I am opposed to bigots for environmental reasons:they are a waste of valuable oxygen.

David Lewin (): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:49PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Is our bigger problem with hate groups(relatively small number of people) orwith Governments who are tired of hearing the Jews complain?

Joey Korn (A Cybrary Moderator): . . . .Tue, Apr 16, 3:50PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I think you have a point there. It isdifferent when you're not Jewish and you debate deniers.

JohnLoftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:50PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
This year Iexperimented with a TV debate with a member of the Identity movement. It was abit fun to rip him to shreds. I confess I am tempted to do it again.

bionurse (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:50PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Don't we all have prejudices of one sort or another..just because we don't wallowin our own prejudices doesn't remove the prejudice.

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:51PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
David, I think itsboth.

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:52PM PDT (-0700GMT)
Good point, David. Governmental indifference was in many ways acondition precedent for the Holocaust. The intelligence files show that theallies were getting accurate weekly reports of the number of Jews being killed asearly as September 1941. Apart from communism and fascism, I think the greatestevil in the 20th century was indifference.

Jutka (Survivor):. . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:53PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I do believe that it is mostimportant that we study and understand the EVENTS that led up to the Holocaustand recognize the signs in our own time and country. Please remember that Hitlercame to power by democratic means and it took him only hundred days in power tosuspend the constitution of the Weimar republic.

David Lewin(): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:53PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
If it is both - then we needto educate Governments and Educatorsrather than biggoted activists.

geopolit (): . . . . Tue, Apr16, 3:54PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Such governmental indifference as we see in the1990s in Rwanda?

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 3:55PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
I am afraid I may have to leave you shortly. I am giving a dinner speech over in Tampa. Pity, that just as we got the backlogsorted out. Perhaps I shall rejoin you later this evening. Any burningquestions?

ELF5808 (): . . .. Tue, Apr 16, 3:57PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
David, if you leave out the activists,then all the good the educators will do will just disapear. Everyone has toeducated, yes, even the stubborn ones.At the very least, they can't say they did'nt know...

Jutka(Survivor): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:57PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
My point is that ifwe allow these cancerous elements in our democratic society to grow and flourishthen the day might come that they will have the power to destroy the very societythat allowed them to have all the democratice rights possible.

John Loftus (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:57PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Let us berealistic, Rwanda was only one of many genocides since the Holocaust. Ourgovernments close their eyes because the citizens are indifferent. Perhapstelevision has given us too much atrocity footage, and we have grown callouses onour souls. I for one am pleased that after a half century od delay, at least weare bringing back the international forum for trying war criminals, both inRwanda and Bosnia,

JoeyKorn (A Cybrary Moderator): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:57PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
John has a speech to give and must leave. Sorry it took so long to getthings to work. Thank you so much John for participating and for your patience.The next speaker will be on at 8:00 EST, in one hour. Feel free to chat in themeantime.

ungvar (Always remember . . . Always): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 3:58PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Governments have been known to respond topublic opinion. Are we not organized enough, forging alliances with responsiblegroups to make an agenda of facts and truth more likely to be acted upon byelected officials?

ELF5808 (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 3:59PM PDT(-0700 GMT)
Yes, John: I am very curious as to how/what tipped you off aboutthis coverup

ANadine (ANadine): . . . . Tue,Apr 16, 4:00PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
How do we combat indifference? Can we? Howcan we make people care?

CVFchuckf (): . . . . Tue, Apr 16,4:00PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Just found the place. How's it going. Chuck

Jutka (Survivor): . . . . Tue, Apr 16, 4:01PM PDT (-0700 GMT)
Anybody care comment on my comments. I'd love to know what you think ofindividual rights versus group rights?


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